Why Serosorting Doesn’t Work For Most Of Us
I used to be a huge fan of serosorting – the idea that neg guys only fuck with neg guys. Now I see things differently and think it’s completely naive to think serosorting will work except in a few circumstances that don’t apply to most gay guys. A couple things changed in my thinking, but the final nail in the coffin was the Swiss statement that says it’s generally safe to fuck with a poz person who’s got a consistent undetectable viral load and no STDs.
Let’s look at the different general groups…
Negative guys who have limited sex with carefully selected partners and get tested regularly. These guys are probably the most believable when they say they’re negative. But the problem with them is that “carefully selected partners” means they’re probably not going to have casual sex with you. They’ve chosen to put staying neg over having a good sex life.
Negative guys who try hard to serosort – always ask status and time of last test. These guys are the next most likely to be genuinely negative, but who knows if the guys that fuck them are really neg or not… Either they’re not having much sex or they’re using condoms a lot.
“Negative” guys who casually serosort. You’ve seen they type – they’re the ones taking anonymous loads, but have “neg ub2″ in their profiles. They barely ask if the guy they’re having sex with is neg, and it’s such a casual request guys feel fine lying to have sex with them. These guys tend to not get tested very regularly, so in a way they’re sorta the highest risk group since they’re taking loads, not getting tested, and barebacking with guys just like themselves.
“Neg” guys who don’t really care about their HIV status. One thing you have to remember when you ask someone if they’re neg and they say yes is whether they care about staying neg. A growing number of guys just don’t care. And if they don’t care about their HIV status, they care even less about yours. If you don’t really get to know the guy and just trust them, you’re being incredibly naive…
Poz guys with undetectable viral loads. According to the Swiss study these guys are actually pretty safe to have sex with.
Poz guys who haven’t started meds. Obviously risky to have sex with, but often people don’t try to differentiate between these guys and the guys with undetectable viral loads and just lump all poz guys into the same category.
“Low risk” poz guys who lie about their status. Usually these guys are bottoms who feel that their lie is somewhat justified by the fact that the risk to the top is generally pretty low, and if they’re undetectable then they feel they really are as low-risk as a neg guy, so they just say they’re neg to “keep things simple” and get more tops to fuck them.
“Don’t ask, don’t tell” poz guys. These guys operate on the concept that your health is your responsibility. If you take a load without asking their status, then you’re OK taking a poz load.
Stealth breeding poz tops. These guys know they’re poz, may have a high viral load, and will do whatever they can to get their poz load in your neg ass including lying when asked about their status. There aren’t many of them out there since what they’re doing is illegal, but there are some.
So the issue is that the guys who are most likely to be negative probably aren’t going to have sex with you. A few will cross your path, but not that many. The guys who are out there having sex are poz guys and high risk neg guys. Even if someone says they’re a total top – can you really believe them? And since people are most infectious right after getting infected themselves “negative” guys who are activey barebacking are really the most dangerous guys to have sex with.
That is the achilles heal of serosorting – that if you serosort you may wind up taking more risk, not less. If one of your tricks turns poz, you’re at far more risk than if you had stuck with poz guys with undetectable viral loads.
When guys realize that it’s safer to have sex with undetectable poz guys is when it gets really complicated. At that point they realize they’re taking poz loads, and serosorting seems pointless, so they often just give up with risk reduction completely.
I know that was sort of the case with me. I was trying to do risk reduction then I realized guys weren’t telling the truth when I asked their status, and if I stuck with “negative” guys who were taking loads from anonymous tops like me, then I was actually having sex with the guys most likely to make me poz. On top of that I like sex and when I stopped worrying about whether the guy was poz or not I started fucking some really great bottoms – since poz guys have fewer inhibitions…
Then there are the guys who realize that they’re rewarding liars and punishing people who tell the truth by saying ‘no’ to poz guys who are upfront about being poz. Yes, this means they take on more risk, but they usually feel that becoming poz is inevitable given what they like to do sexually…
That said serosorting is a decent strategy for a certain type of person. If you’re the type who likes getting to know the guy you’re having sex with, and being romatic, then you’re probably not having sex with a lot of guys to begin with. The fact that you get to know the guys is one of the things that’s vital to effective serosorting. And most of the guys like this have no problem dropping back to condoms if things don’t feel quite right…
Those are the guys who should be serosorting, but I doubt there are many of them reading this blog ’cause I tend to treat bottoms like impersonal fuckholes. Often I don’t really want to get to know the guy. I’m perfectly happy if there’s zero conversation. The bottoms who get into that are either poz or on their way to being poz ’cause you can’t stay neg if you take anonymous loads on a regular basis.
If you like anonymous sex with lots of guys (like I do), then serosorting just won’t work for you. My advice to you is to just accept the risk, get on with things, and enjoy your sex life… 
You forgot a group that is good for serosorting. Poz guys who serosort…only having sex with other poz guys. That way, no neg guys will be affected unless they blatenly lie about being poz so that they can become poz.
I personally think thats best. Its completely uninhibited, and you’re guaranteed to catch a load.
@Beau – I did think about them, but it was written from the perspective of the neg guy who’s trying to do risk reduction. There are so many poz guys who will have sex with neg guys that the few poz guys who won’t really don’t make that much of a difference (IMHO).
Interesting post. I never really thought about it in these terms. I spent most of my life as a top guy who fucked negative guys who have limited sex with carefully selected partners and get tested regularly. I was relationship oriented. A couple of years ago I had a sexual awakening and became a top guy that fucked a lot but used a lot of condoms. Recently I found that I like being a bb top but limit it to regular tricks cause of the risks. I’m not sure if I’m going to change my act but I might. Being a bb top is always better than a wrapped top. At least I have some things to think about.
I say let’s all fuck like tomorrow will never dawn.
The funny thing is, for me, during the late 70s and 80s I used to wear condoms mostly because I didn’t like getting shit on my dick. That may have saved me.
Now, almost 13 years after being diagnosed, I know what I’m doing and will only fuck raw. I don’t like the feel of latex and, frankly, find it very irritating to the shaft and the head.
There is something about fucking someone raw. It’s not just because the Sex Police would flip. It’s not just because the Chi Chi Larue’s are against it. And it sure as hell isn’t the thrill of seroconverting someone though I have had several encounters like that. There’s something about looking deep into the eyes of the man or boy you’re fucking, something about that first spurt, the final one, staring into one another’s eyes, searching the other’s soul. It’s an amazing connection that I have NEVER felt wearing condoms.
I’ll wear them, of course; especially on those occasions that I’m in front of the camera. But I prefer the raw connection. Bare. And knowing that some pretty young thing wants a dirty load gives me a raging boner. Like the cute latin boy I fucked several years ago at a local bath house. I told him he had a hot ass,and we went back to my room. He said he was collecting loads. With lines like that, who needs Viagra? I banged him twice that night while my partner watched and a third in the dark room. As I followed him out I shoved my fingers up his ass. His hole was sloppy, the cum was running down his legs and I was SO fucking turned on.
Yeah, I know, I’m sick. I’m twisted. I’m perverted. I’ll have to deal with the consequences when my time comes and I’m called to heaven or hell. So, for now, I’ll have some fun.
Hope I didn’t ramble too much.
There is no substitute for being right up front down right honest about your status and if you are taking medications like me. Undetectable and no other STD’s that is the catch. NO other STD’s. I used to take anon loads and I always told. I had a lot of fun. The reason, I told right up front. Nothing is like getting fucked raw and taking a guys load and feeling good about having told.
This is all very stupid. I’m poz. All you negative people need to wake up and get real. If you don’t want to get HIV… USE A CONDOM. the idea that you can somehow significantly reduce your risk by asking total strangers their status is completely illogical. Smokers have to deal with cancer, and barebackers have to deal with HIV. That’s the bottom line!
I guess it’s a conversation we need to have.
When I was single, and regularly tested neg, I went to bathhouses and sometimes dived into those sweet, tight bottom boys laying face down, bareassed, asking to get fucked. You’d grope your cock through your towel, they’d nod you in, then suck your dick. They’d arch their back at you, you touch their ass, and it’s already slippery. You knew he already took at least one load, why not another one?
Now I’m in a relationship, and bizarrely enough, he fucks me. He rides me, and I ask to be his bitch, and take his load. I never feel as much at peace as when he’s ridden me hard for half an hour at least, and I know I’ve taken his load in my ass. And that’s a good way to go to sleep.
But, it’s all about what you believe. I believe my bf when he tells me the load he just shot in my ass is neg…frankly, I’d bet the ranch on it. (and have, I guess).
In terms of the whole +/- thing, I think it comes down to
… what do you believe, and what do you want to believe?
I think serosorting works… sort of… depends on the quality of your information, which is hopefully quite good if you know the guy, but might be close to 50/50 if you just met him. If you just met him, try to seperate what your gut is telling you from what your dick is telling you. The thing is, he might believe he’s neg, but if he just seroconverted and doesn’t know it yet, his viral load will be very high, and he is much more likely to poz your ass. Viral loads are most often highest immediately after someone seroconverts.
At any rate, if you want to stay neg, your best bet is to stay on top. You could bareback fuck all of the twinks of West Hollywood, and probably stay neg.
thanks to rawtop for his very hot site, and letting me rant and vent.
Jon
I head an HIV prevention program for an ASO. Despite ARV regimen compliance and undetectable viral loads, some of my clients do infect their partners.
The swiss statement drew the ire of researchers and activists in the field because we know it simply is not true. Serosorting is but one of many prevention tools, and it has absolutely nothing to do with ARV compliance. How you related the two I don’t know.
The big issue is that guys claim to be neg when they haven’t been tested regularly, or they’ve seroconverted (become HIV positive) since their last test and don’t know it.
As a poz guy with an undetectable viral load, I choose to have sex with other poz guys only. The reason is more emotional than anything. Quite frankly, it makes me very very anxious and stressed to be with someone that is negative and if we/I “make a mistake” and place the other person at risk, I simply do not want that on my conscious. As Rawtop has mentioned, there are all types out there including the infamous “bug chasers and givers” and the psychopaths that intentionally want to make you poz (they are out there believe me). Bottom line, to each their own and only the individuals have the power to decide. In addition, just because a guy looks healthy and great, it does not mean they are not positive. Many poz men and myself, included, do no look “sick” at all. People do not believe me when I tell them, I am poz.. P.S. this site is fantatistic,Rawtop!!!!!
As a guy who usually fucks as a Top or flip-flopping. Admittedly I know I LOVE when I’m being a GREAT bottom, even more, serving as a SUB-bottom,(bottom never being capitolized).Begrudgingly I concede I have not gotten a load UP my ASS since high-school with other near virgin guys from the football team, to even nerds. I miss the kind of feeling,connection like what Ben(comment #4)talks about.
I mean for those of us who have jizzed-in men,and those of us who have BEEN jizzed-IN know, there are those moments of breath taking and breath-bating,heated,sweaty,moany,gutteral,primal feelings of climax when your rectum can measure your Top getting SOOO MUCH closer to blowing his wad all over your innerads, and when the Top guy knows that in the next rapid succession of moments this bottom wants nothing MORE in this world then to feel that jizz, lube and shooting into him.Then the following moments when both men CLING so tightly to each other in a blinding white RAPTURE of electric SENSATIONS,when our instinctive,primal feelings COLLIDE,when you’re at one with the man with you and for the next 20 minutes as you both settle back down to earth, All Is Right With The World,and EVERTHING is so right with what you’ve done with each other!
But unlike Ben, I have experienced physical satisfaction with guys wearing condoms that rival the cumhole feeling, perhaps even matched that sensation, ‘cuz alot of it is an emotional connection,and not JUST a physical one.
But, I’ve been trying to break-into gay porn flicks.And I offer up being prett uninhibited sexually,with W/S,fetish,BDSM,FACIALS (BIG-TIME FAVE)virtually anything so far, except BB. I’m negative,also I was told, wrongly so I think, that the condom-only companies do not work with those who have performed in BB-flicks.But I know people like Chi-Chi and many others would never look twice at or work with a guy with my looks.
So I’ve been feeling I would/may go BB if I want to make headway in this business. I think my chances of being accepted (so far) in this genre would reach much more acceptance.
I’ve BB with about a dozen guys,since high-school, they’ve pulled out and either I’ve sucked them off and many times swallowing,or taken a load on my face or chest. But I’m amazed at how many guys really dig cumming on a furry chest.
As far as serosorting goes,I’m not sure HOW to comment on the topic.I have just commented on Condoms vs. Bare-pickling,I have Topped bareback several since highschool,a few times cum dumping by request, and other times shooting outside of the bottom.
But to me if you want to remain NEG, you’ll always use the advantages of a condom.I may need beter research or more education, but the ideal of someone with a LOW-viral load who is POZ and probably not infecting you is just theoretical. But for every bottom chooses to go this far is then his own test-case.You will be the result of your own experimentation.
But for those who accept the possibility of becoming POZ as a result of BB, maybe they’re taking some solace in what early detection and then the increased quality of living with HIV brings. And thereafter seeking to expand the corridors of his sex-life,and hopefully honestly with his partners.
So for me, the question to BB or continue limiting these experiences,or not BB-ing at all,still lies out there.
I DO KNOW I HAVE ENJOYED WATCHING RawTop, for these last 48hrs, through jizzflixxx.com,and now HERE from his own Blog site!
As other more evolved individuals have said, THANK YOU RawTop, for creating this DESTINATION, developing a fully enlightening,entertaining and educational place for men to meet!
And this has been a GREAT FORUM for me to have discussed deep-seeded feelings and thoughts I’ve never,ever, discussed with any of my friends even to this day.
And I want THANK all of you guys on HERE who have spoken frankly and shared your myriad of thoughts,sexual feelings and experiences.
Speaking for myself as conflicted man, each contribution is opening my mind to make the MOST informed decision.
All The Best,
Aaron
I think that if you practice bareback sex that means two possible things: #1 you’re poz and you think that any other std you can get is healable. #2 you are neg and don’t care if you get poz. But is I’m poz and I ask you to have bareback sex with me… well we’re both adults and we do know what are our penisses for… so, is a good think to ask someone about his status but they can lie or thay can be ignoranto of their status so if you practice BB you’re fucked XD
I started off serosorting a number of years ago before the term was popularized. I enjoy real sex and I am still amazingly hiv negative however for me, and others, it is not about being poz and neg and all that shit, its all about enjoying real sex. I am not reckless and maybe i will become poz one day but what i cannot go back to is rubbers as raw sex is totally and utterly hot and there is nothing anyone can do or say!
As a young, (24) poz vers/bottom (very fit, healthy, 730 cd4 and no meds)I try to sero sort by only hooking up with other poz guys, which is fine for certain situations (Gaydar/Saunas/Sex parties) but it doesn’t really translate when your out on the scene, meeting guys – its not exactly a great opening line. I BB because if im getting fucked I want to feel the guy inside me – like others on this thread have said, theres an animalistic connection that just cannot be reached with a condom – i WANT his cum deep inside me – and i’d rather have less sex but raw. And its fucking hot for a top I think knowing a fit young guy is literally begging you to seed him… Am i right?
@H – Given that you’re a bottom, there’s really not much risk to a neg top to fuck you raw. There is a little since you’re not on meds, but it’s not much provided there’s no cuts on his dick. I know I’m one neg top who would want to fuck you raw and wouldn’t be happy that you might say ‘no’ since I’m neg…
Yeah – I guess so – just would hate the thought of pozzing someone else.. I guess if your open about it you give the option to someone. BTW i’ll be in NYC soon wanna play?
@H – e-mail me (rawtop@yahoo.com) to hookup… give me your pics and stats when you do